31st July, 2004
(1) On our way to the gas station we saw an abandoned car on the road. A police truck came and tucked it away saying that it was a stolen vehicle.
(2) On our way back, Oleg, the AV driver had suddenly lost control of the steering wheel as he approached a curve while driving too fast. We went off the road, but lucky for us the hummer didn't hit anything, and we could resume our patrol.
(3) Matan, Oren and Oleg decided to drive to a Palestinian grapevine to steal some grapes. I remember a few days ago when I was in Adora Oleg brought a lot of green grapes to the house and one of the lieutenants asked him where he had taken it from. He claimed he'd taken it from the neighboring houses in Adora (there are indeed some places in Adora where you can see grapes growing outside the gardens, covering the walls, free for the taking) but this version didn't seem to stick, because the grapes in Adora needed at least another month to look like the ones he had brought with him. Now I'm convinced that he lied, that it's not the first time he steals grapes from Palestinians along with a commander and other soldiers (a commander is always present in the AV)
All I could do is sit in the backseat of the AV and watch them steal. Any comment on their behavior would be regarded as leftist. I was trapped: I could either sit and do nothing, which is like taking part in their theft, or I could tell all about it to an officer of a higher rank, and be regarded as an informant which may end up being far worse. The one thing I did do was take pictures of it.
The problem is, these soldiers don't see it as a crime. They're like the same kids they were at school - excited at causing some damage, at doing something illegal. There's one thing that they forget - they're not kids anymore, they wear an IDF uniform and they represent the Israeli army and Israel as a whole. They're no longer free individuals and they must abide by the rules of the organization they're a part of. That is mostly why IDF looks the way it does - individuality.
They don't think about the consequences of their actions or of what the other side must feel like. I can imagine what would happen if a Palestinian stole fruits from Israeli settlers... What can Palestinians do when they see armed soldiers walking on their property and taking whatever they want? There were several kids, women and old men looking at us as Oleg drove further into the vineyard to get some more grapes of a higher quality. I guess that's when Matan felt a bit of shame and decided against stealing in front of these people.
(4) We did a random checkpost on a narrow Palestinian road in order to check some cars. A TIPH car came. TIPH - Temporary International Presence in Hebron - these are guys with cameras who watch IDF soldiers carefully to see if we commit any injustices towards the Palestinian population. Soldiers hate them, but something tells me this hatred is genuine. There are many organizations of that kind in the territories. This is just a local one.
(5) Yesterday we saw 2 ambulances pass by. Our lieutenant stopped them with his jeep in order to check them out. It's said that sometimes Palestinians use ambulances to smuggle terrorists and weapons from one place to another. Not today - the medical team said there was a traffic accident in Hidna in which 4 people were smashed to death.
(6) We arrived at a big house (or perhaps a small mansion) at the entrance of Halhoul, just above the bridge connecting the 2 cities. This big house was more like a safehouse for a Palestinian family that cooperates with IDF. This is something real strange: They live on the first floor and the other floors are populated by soldiers who watch over Hebron and Halhoul.
I had to patrol in the garden and the terrace with another soldier. It was a beautiful garden with a fountain, a marble-made floor and beautifully carved stone walls. I felt like a bodyguard of a mafia mob!
We've waited until the plumber fixed the pipes and then left.
(7) We did another checkpost on the bridge between the two cities. We've been standing there for an hour while Matan and Tal (another commander from the nearby pillbox) checked 2 lanes full of cars. It doesn't matter what was its purpose, obviously the frustration of the mile-long line of cars along with hundreds of pedestrians weren't worth it. Dozens of Palestinians left the cars and started walking by foot.
We didn't find any kind of suspects or criminals among the Palestinians, but we surely gave them a good reason to create some. Why do we check IDs and cars on a road that leads from one Palestinian city to another? (Especially when it's completely ineffective as there are a hundred alternatives routes that connect the two cities which Palestinians use on a daily basis)
Sometimes I don't understand the decisions that our officers make. But then I'm just an ordinary soldier - they don't owe me an explanation. They give me orders and I have to carry them out. Unless the order involves committing violence towards an unarmed civilian or any other illegal actions that count as illegal in IDF's ethical code, I must obey at all times.
58 comments:
Thank you for commenting on my blog. I read this post and the stealing of the grapes seemes so sympolic to me that it goes right into my heart. Not only for obvious poitical reasons, but mostly because you write so heartfelt and honest about it.
That, gives me hope too.
I've read most of your very nice blog now, and how can I say this as a married muslim woman (let's hope me being 10 years older saves me) to a israeli soldier, but I'm simply in love with your writing.
I'm dying to know what happened with Angel???
I'm also dying to know what happens with Angel.. I think it's a big mystery that he'll unveil with some big bang à la "Angel and I just tied the knot"
;-)
Great post! Thanks for writing it.
I am proud to know that there were (and are) people like you in my country.
For that you have no hesitations to distinguish between black and white,
It's really full of hope. More Israelis and more Palestinians like you and one day you guys will reach something. Last year I visited Israel and spent lengthy discussions with some 7-8 of my hosts (these were Jews from Poland) on the Pa-Il matter. From this I know in Israel there are lots of reasonable people. Either these persons were willing to give away the Territories, or they were saying 'Palestinians should stop the terror and the Palestinian state is possible'. This gives a heavy charge of hope.
With best wishes from Warsaw
Chris
Am I the only one who cannot see the photos? :(
Even when I copy/paste the link it tells me google doesn't have this pix anymore (or something to that extent).
BTW: TDIS, I've said it b4 and will say it again - you got a lovely blog. The most informative, down-to-earth information one could possibly ever get from 'within' the army :)
"Israeli soldier", if your intentions are good, you should 'join' Yesh Gvul. In case you did not know about it, here you go, please enlighten yourself:
http://www.yeshgvul.org/
and don't forget to check out the names of the soldiers who have refused to serve for the occupation of 1967 lands:
http://www.yeshgvul.org/jail.asp?past=1
Tsedek, you're not the only one.
Oh, he's keeping on waiting on purpose, eh? Well, I just have to be back then! //Imaan
Nope, Tsedek is not the only only who cannot see the photos. They were there last time I checked, but now they've disappeared.
But the writing has not disappeared. And it is wonderful. Waiting eagerly for the next post.
Thank you so much for your comments everyone. I cannot tell you how much it warms my heart to read your words.
It is strange that the pictures are gone. I put them in their original size of 1600x1200. Maybe they're too big. I'll try putting them again now. If it won't work, I'll work on it tomorrow.
Imaan - Thank you so so much for your words. It means a lot to me to hear this from you. I've read a part of your blog and I wish I'll have some more time to read it all, it's very interesting and I'd love to know all about you, your family and everything you went through. It's an honor for me to know you. :)
Nizo - Thanks. :) You'll know everything in time.
Nominally - Thank you, my friend. I feel the same about you.
krzysztof - Thank you. I agree with you - there are many reasonable Israelis and Palestinians, but probably not enough.
Tsedek - Thank you so much! I love your blog as well. But still have a lot more to read. :P
And the guy whose name is in Arabic (sorry, I don't know how to read it and am ashamed a bit about it as everyone here knows Arabic at least a bit and I don't)
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out later.
Wow, first time I've had so many comments. Feels like a birthday party. Hehe.
There, the photos seem to work now.
Thank you Lisa. :)
Dear Israelidiary,
I would be very cautious talking to this Arabic-speaking man. Yesterday I looked at his blog and tried to discuss with him. In his blog, he puts the name of your country with quote marks, and calls the outcome of the last war per 'divine victory'. I tried to discuss with him, that by military actions from within civilian areas Hezbollah is co-responsible for the deaths of this war. He denied every example that I showed him from the media. Asking question, why Hezbollah blends with civilians, first gave reply of a type 'what's your next fallacious question' or sort of that, and after repeating he said sort of that I shall not press him and have no idea what was happening. In my humble opinion, this question is precisely what Hezbolah should address. Although I am not Israeli, he started threating me, that 'they' gonna do something to me as only I appear by the lebanon's border.When I said some 500 of the dead on the Lebanese side was in fact Hezbollah's fighters, he required me to... send him their names - the fact that the world press agencies refer to this number apparently didn't count.
I think this sort of people should be ostracized. They shout aloud the crimes of the other side, refusing looking at the side they support. I think any peace or future reconciliation becomes difficult to happen just because of such aggressive people.
Cheers - Chris
Krzysztof
Quit being such a crybaby and stop twisting my words, I did not threaten you, and you are the LEAST of our worries. We have better things to busy ourselves with than worry when you will appear by the Lebanese border........ really, do me a favour and stop attaching to yourself so much importance.
You talk about ostracizing us, well, here's some piece of advice to you: go busy yourself ostracizing your neo-Nazis. At least then you won't be merely whining about alleged 'anti-Semitism' but doing something about real anti-Semitism, in your very own country and not others' countries.
You know what your, Westerners', problem is? You think you are know-it-all, and that you can philosophize about the problems of everyone and every single country, without ever having set foot, or understanding the politics of those countries, and this does not only apply to your views on Hezb Allah but also on "Israel" and the whole conflict. Ironic that this is one thing that even Hezb Allah members and "Israelis" who have served in the IDF agree on!
Believe us when we (Hezb Allah members/supporters, "Israelis", etc.) say: you have NO IDEA.
So kindly stop interfering in our affairs and conflicts, thank you very much!
And THAT is not a threat, although you can go on whining about how I threatened you.
Sir,
I dont' care about your views of the westerner. If one side cries out loud about atrocities done by the other side, it refers to the common moral code. However, there is no exception, I repeat: NO exception from this code for you and anybody whoever his/her name and affiliation is. You MUST address the question of Hezbollah's putting civilians at risk. This organization, and NO organization has rights to do it, otherwise it is co-responsible for the dead, as HRW pointed it out, period. And this has ZEROth degree link to anybody' prosemitism, filosemitism, filoisraelism. Such connections can only rise in a mind of somebody who immediately shapes the debater into the form of an enemy with bad intentions.
Your style of discussion was aggressive, full of offence, you simply treated me from the beginning as an evil enemy, instead of discussing. Sir, this style says something about you. And it is exactly your style of discussion, that makes the window for any further discussion closed. It's better that you saw it and change it.
>So kindly stop interfering in our affairs and conflicts
-and this type of things.
You write your blog in English, wasn't I mistaken? that interests me very much in the light of your words, why do you do it?
I think you do it in order to make the cursed westerner interested in your view. You publish your post worldwide that everyone can read. But begone anybody who disagrees! Asking the most precise and well-defined question: why does Hezbollah blend with the Lebanese civilians at risk makes you sick. Who even dares to ask such an anti-lebanese and in fact fallacious question? Indeed, he must be very one-sided that he does not whiten Hezbollah from this. Shame...
why does Hezbollah blend with the Lebanese civilians
Why does "Israel" hold "Israeli" civilians hostages and human shields?
Answer that, please!
Thanks.
And as for me writing in English, my blog is primarily in ARABIC in case you did not notice. My English posts are only meant for my readers who do not understand Arabic and who would like to know more about Hezb Allah.
We certainly do not 'beg' for support, and it was not us, who in the summer, were censoring the media. Last I checked, the "Israeli" media was not allowed to say anything without approval from the "Israeli" war machine. We knew about the 12 "Israeli" soldiers killed in "Kfar Gil'adi" hours before the 5 million "Israelis" did. I think that says more than enough, both about us and about our enemies.
Go preach to your own flock about freedom, human shields, and the like! Last I checked we were not the ones who put the Jews in concentration camps and ovens!
And you have the audacity to come and preach about morality to us! Shame on YOU!
>Why does "Israel" hold "Israeli" civilians hostages and human shields?
>Answer that, please!
I have no problem with pointing any usage of human shield as a crime! You want to hear it, I say it clearly and openly. This is the biggest problem, which you don't understand: you think I support Israel and blame Lebanon. NO! I support the peaceful people and moral code, and oppose the crime.
Whoever commits a crime, he/she DESERVES the denouncement. You simply don't understand, that Hezbollah is NOT ABOVE this rule. This is the misery of this shameful conversation.
>Last I checked we were not the ones who put the Jews in concentration camps and ovens!
What you write is simply primitive. Abhorrent, aggressive and primitive. Again it shows the readers something about you. Now I am going to tell you: half of my family DIED for the crime of being Jews in the concentration camps and ovens. I can bet that you will not understand the lesson coming from this and this may "explain" you why this guy dares to fallaciously "attack" the saint Hezbollah. Have a sunny day, sir.
Btw. after receiving from me the clear and open denouncement of using the human shields by the IDF, will I now hear from you some moral considerations about blending the military part of Hezbollah among Lebanese civilians? I am waiting.
Your response to the human shield question was evasive at best. Answer the question.
Why does "Israel" hold "Israeli" civilians as human shields and hostages?
Because this means that "Israel" shares "co-responsibility" for the "Israeli" deaths, as per your logic.
I want a clear answer, not an evasive "I am not denying that it might have taken place".
I am sorry for your loss, however, that was not my point, and my point was not meant to be a personal remark.
My remark was aimed at the 'western values' that you claim to be speaking on behalf of, so-called 'morality', an argument which, you seem not to realize, is being used and abused to justify subjugation, occupation, and crimes against my people.
Your attempt to impose a "balance" of "guilt" for what happened last summer is misleading, and malicious.
I hope you realize that the capture of 2 soldiers, in no way justifies the killing of 1200 civilians (which you seem to want to minimize the significance of by pointing out, again without providing any proof, that 700 of them were Hezb Allah fighters, as if the killing of allegedly 500 civilians is "justified"), which seems to be what you are implying. In fact, your attempt to address the non-existent issue of Hezb Allah holding civilians as human shields is an attempt to divert the topic from the main question, was the war justified to begin with, and if not, then all the crimes that followed, "human shields" or not, fall on the party that chose war over diplomatic negotiations on an equal platform, exchange of prisoners of war for detainees in "Israeli" prisons!
You, sir, are an apologist for "Israel". Not because you allegedly choose to view both sides equally, but exactly because you do NOT. Putting actions that are unequal in magnitude, on the same platform, is NOT "objectivism". It is reductionism with an immoral agenda: justifying "Israel's" war crimes.
This is NOT evasive! This is the clearest possible question thay you can obtain: I d e n o u n c e it. As a non-Israeli, a person who has zeroth influence in this country, this is the only thing I can say. Again? Clearly: I denounce it. Using human shield is a crime, period. Where do you see a shadow of evasiveness here? If you for example want to learn my opinion about the settlers in the Territories - I can clearly say: they should go and the Palestine state should be established there. I can add to this - they should go for the mutual recognition of these both states and warrants of security, but you can clearly hear from me: settlers should go. What I meant by this example is that there is NO excuse for denouncing the crimes as crimes. Also the side you support CAN commit crimes, because we all bear the human nature. Please understand it, really.
>My remark was aimed at the 'western values' that you claim to be speaking on behalf of, so-called 'morality', an argument which, you seem not to realize
Excuse me. What you did was the technique of calling the morality, the "so-called" morality and labelling it as one of the "western values". NO! This is MORALITY, period. Western, eastern, even on the south pole. It is the moral code that everyone bears. Moreover, Sir (Sir, since I don't know your name). Lebanon is the United Nations' member and has signed the Geneva Conventions. From this moment it is legally BOUND to subdue regulations written there. Any country, and it of course touches as well Israel, as Lebanon which signed these regulations, has the god damn duty to subdue it. Any
organization acting within Lebanon, that is Hezbollah also, must subdue to the regulations that Lebanon signed. This concerns as well the UN SC Resolution caling for the disbandment of Hezbollah, as well the UN SC Resolution stating that the annexation of East Jerusalem by Israel is null and void. Only when you stick to GENERAL rule, you can discuss with the greater audience whether your arguments are right in general or wrong in general. Moral in general or immoral in general.
More comments soon.
My question was, I repeat:
Why does "Israel" hold "Israeli" civilians as human shields and hostages?
I did not ask you to denounce it 'if' it happened, I asked you WHY (which goes beyond the 'if' that your response does not want to go beyond) "Israel" does it, which is the exact copy of your question.
I am waiting for your answer.
As for the Security Council resolutions and international law, I notice you ignore the things that do not fit into your agenda, such as the internationally recognized RIGHT OF RETURN. Sorry I guess that is just "anti-Semitic", and must therefore be ignored. What a joke. PLEASE, for the sake of not sounding like the joke that you are sounding like, at least do not claim "objectivity"! I certainly do not!
And as for the disarmament of Hezb Allah, the resolution calls for disarmament of militias, and Hezb Allah is not a militia by Lebanese law, please revise Ta'ef accord and the statement of the Lebanese Cabinet! THANK YOU!
And next time you want to go on a rant about 'international law' , make sure that you revise ALL international law, and not just the parts that suit your arguments. Because, you know, not all those you debate with are incompetent.
Continuation.
In between I am again waiting for your considerations about blending of Hezbollah among civilians. I heared from you that this is the inexistent issue. Well, Human Rights Watch and for example UN's Ian Egeland don't share your opinion, simulateneously not having the problem of blaming Israel for the war crimes her army did.
Our polish journalists were also clearly reporting about this inexistent issue. So I would like to hear from you, even as a gedanken experiment: if Hezbollah used the civilian infrastructure for military purposes, how would you morally defined this action? Just theoretically.
Sir, in ZERO percent I intended to minimize the righteous cry over those of Lebanese who passed away. My intentions were that you gave a number of 1200 civilians, while really a number of press agencies, acting independently from different countries, were reporting that of those 1200, ca. 500 were Hezbollah fighters. My intentions are NOT to whiten Israel, not to depress the pain for the died Lebanese persons. My intentions are against inflation of numbers and giving back the BALANCED values. If you want to know, I DONATED to the Polish humanitarian organization for the medicines explicitly for the Lebanese civilians. I am saying it only because that I feel that you take me as somebody who I am not!
If you for example want to hear from me, what was in Qana, I will clearly answer: this was a war crime.
Another comment: this was not the "capture of 2 soldiers". This was a provocation in which the organization you support crossed the border, killed other 3 soldiers and (what to me is of most importance) treated the near-border israeli civilian town with the Katyusha fire. If this is not the reason for war for any single country, then I am a Santa Claus...
Moreover, as I remember, this has been done already 4th time since israeli disengagement from the south Lebanon in 2000, fully accepted by the UN. Man, such actions are forbidden! Only the Army of Lebanon is authorized to use force in the name of the Lebanese people. The fact that Lebanese people sit in israeli jails is irrelevant, since there are lots of foreign people sitting in any other country for the crimes they performed and never this gives a right for any militia to shoot rockets into any other territory. Does Bulgaria militarly assault Libya for the nurses, even if the trial was a farse? I didn't notice this.
>then all the crimes that followed, "human shields" or not, fall on the party that chose war over diplomatic negotiations
You are absolutely wrong, sir! The international standards are clear: even if the side is responsible for beginning a military conflict, it gives NO right to the other side to cause intentional harm to civilians. That is exactly why, despite in my opinion Hezbollah is responsible for starting war, it is righteous to claim that IDF commited war crimes. I am quite shock that you don't understand these obvious matter, which are also written in the international law.
>justifying "Israel's" war crimes.
In NO place I justify Israel's war crime. Contrary, in this and other sentences you put Israel in question marks, which clearly shows how twisted your view is. I am going to inform you that Israel is the UN member. Regarding your sentence: it is the opposite! I merely wanted to hear from you ANY SIGN of immoral conduct of Hezbollah. That such actions happened, it is recognized by United Nations, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and so on. Therefore it seems to me, that it is not my illusion. Concerning IDF's crimes, you can clearly hear from me: they were crimes. For example, carpeting the south of Lebanon with the cluster munition was undoubtedly the IDF's war crime. Now I am interested to hear from you how do you recognize sending the cluster munition by Hezbollah to the Israeli civilian areas, according to what HRW reported.
>As for the Security Council resolutions and international law, I notice you ignore the things that do not fit into your agenda, such as the internationally recognized RIGHT OF RETURN.
>make sure that you revise ALL international law, and not just the parts that suit your arguments.
Excuse me, could you show me a single phrase where I said it?
Seems to me that this is the next example of your practice of pushing the debater into the attitudes he didn't express.
>I did not ask you to denounce it 'if' it happened, I asked you WHY (which goes beyond the 'if' that your response does not want to go beyond) "Israel" does it, which is the exact copy of your question.
It becomes very boring, but I can deliver you my estimations. To my opinion, many IDF soldiers' conduct is immoral, and moreover if their normal conduct is moral, in the course of military action their nerves make them forget their moral obligations. But this does not acquit from them the charge of war crimes.
After the 3th or 4th question posed by you on this matter, could you please ONCE refer to my question that I cannot obtain from you?
Sir, I want to hear your answer to the charges of Hezbollah's war crimes posed by HRW, AI and UN's special Envoy.
Concerning the UN SC resolution. Unfortunately I must inform you that you are wrong. The text reads:
" Full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state;"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4785963.stm
So, the text is very clear about that. As Lebanon is a UN member and the SC resolutions are binding to this country, Hezbollah must disarm and give the weapons for the sake of the Lebanese Army. Again to be clear: as I said, never I contradict UN SC resolutions against Israel. They are also binding for this country.
Very short reply as your points are quite disgusting and do not warrant any longer replies:
1. I do not answer 'theoretical' questions, this is clearly not a theoretical question purely, it is an empirical one, which you and your likes will then use to extrapolate from, to make conclusions in a non-theoretical situation. Been there, seen that.
2. BBC, one of the more 'credible' agencies, reports that 1109 civilians, 28 Lebanese army soldiers (not in action since the army was sleeping) were killed, in addition to the absence of any 'reliable' figures on Hezb Allah deaths, and "Israel's" 'estimates' that 530 fighters were killed (clearly separate from the 1200 civilians, which by the way the Lebanese authorities, which are by no means sympathetic to Hezb Allah, have updated the figure of, to 1191), in addition to Hezb Allah and Amal's claim, supported with NAMES of fighters who were Martyred, that the number was 250.
I do not know what your point is, in insisting that there were more fighters killed. We are proud of our Martyrs and I do not see why we should deny our losses in the fight against injustice and terrorism. What is it that you are implying here? Is there any implication that arises from your claim?
3. International law and Geneva conventions clearly state that indiscriminate bombardment of civilian areas is a war crime. Any target that is not clearly identified as leading to a military advantage, or that is not a clear military target, is considered to be illegal to target. Meanwhile, "Israel" leveled thousands of 10-story buildings, bridges all over the country, including Christian areas, and areas that were most hostile to Hezb Allah and therefore Hezb Allah has no presence there, and does not even come close to those areas, nor does it need to. What is your excuse? The burden of proving that these were legitimate military targets is on "Israel", rather than Hezb Allah disproving that it held civilians as "human shields"! Whereas YOU consider US guilty of it until proven innocent, I say, since it is "Israel" that claims these areas were legitimate targets, IT must prove how it was so. Very simple. Logic 101.
4. Your sentence, sir, "Concerning IDF's crimes, you can clearly hear from me: they were crimes" is a TAUTOLOGY, and again EVASIVE. You are avoiding calling a spade a spade, and instead are using a tautology, namely, "Israeli crimes were crimes". Yes, that is all great indeed, but this does not say much about WHAT you consider as crimes.
5. Whereas we have shown proofs, in real pictures, of our shells having targeted MILITARY and STRATEGIC installations and SOLDIERS INSIDE towns (and by their own admission the "Israelis" held their civilians as human shields in Meron where a 7 year old boy, OMER PESACHOV and his grandmother, were killed), in SHLOMI, KFAR GIL'ADI, AVIVIM, KIRYAT SHEMONA, TIBERIAS, CARMA'IL, HAIFA, and so on, "Israel" has not shown any such proof, and has instead tried to market its war crimes, with 'videos' that my 10-year-old neighbors can make on the computer.
6. Very well, if you did not say you denied the right of return for Palestinian refugees to their original villages and towns and lands, then I presume when you talk about a 2-state solution you mean that the "Jewish state" would also include all the Palestinians who were once dispossessed of the lands that lay within its borders. Anything less than that is a violation of the internationally recognized right of return.
Hezb Allah is considered a Resistance and not an "armed group", both in the Ta'ef agreement, which is the very basis of the post-war Lebanese republic, and has been accepted by the UN, as well as in the Cabinet statement in 2005, which also defines Hezb Allah as a RESISTANCE (rather than "armed" group).
Very simple. Go read the Ta'ef, or better yet, go busy yourself with Polish politics, at least then you would get some things right, and not force people to open a classroom for educating you and your likes on Lebanese and Middle Eastern history and realities.
I think, the attempt to boost the number of Hezb Allah fighters killed stems from the need to prop up shattered egos and challenge the otherwise unchallengable argument that Hezb Allah and the Lebanese people WON the war, and that the victory was a DIVINE one (once again, my virtual reality I suppose).
If we defeated 30,000+ soldiers with tanks, vehicles, air force, and navy, with 1000 fighters, and without giving more than 250 Martyrs, and if you would like to boost your ego, why not include the so-called 'vehicles' that we allegedly used, like the one the picture of which I will post soon on my blog, which the "Israelis" discovered and targeted, if it will make you feel better about our DIVINE victory and your (because as I said, you, with your attempts to dilute the difference between our fighters and civilians, are therefore legitimizing the bombardment of civilians, residential buildings, clearly identified hospitals, etc.) unholy? loss. :)
Anyway, I got kind of carried away in my last paragraph and didn't construct a proper sentence, but I meant say, that if all that I mentioned was only part of my virtual reality, then I don't know what reality would look like. ;)
Perhaps we shall find out in round 2.
>I do not answer 'theoretical' questions, this is clearly not a theoretical question purely,
Come on, I want ANY question. ANY. I can only repeat: both HRW, AI,
and UN's envoy Ian Egeland accused Hezbollah of these actions. This is the REAL question. Address it, please.
>What is your excuse?
You continue not to understand. My questions are NO excuse. They are REAL. You consistently fail to recognize what I mean: BOTH sides of the conflict commited war crimes. This finds reflection in the HRW and AI reports. Whoever commits crimes, he deserves denouncement for these crimes.Period.
?and so on, "Israel" has not shown any such proof, and has instead tried to market its war crimes, with 'videos'
I start doubting whether I am talking to a serious person. It was not only Israeli who showed proofs. It was Human Right Watch that showed proofs:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/18/lebano14412.htm
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/18/lebano13760.htm
Please inform yourself with the findings and pictures and don't deny the obvious facts.
>Hezb Allah is considered a Resistance and not an "armed group",
Excuse me, don't make me burst with laughter. What resistance, against what? Israel has unilaterally withdrawn from ALL the lebanese territory, which was marked by UN.
And more of 'virtual reality': Hezbollah is not an armed group... yes, they are armed with reindeers and footballs. Come on, don't you see this is ridiculous what you are saying?
>Anything less than that is a violation of the internationally recognized right of return.
By the way, no. You are wrong. Show me please the UN Security Resolution pointing to this. And don't say that I pose antipalestinian opinions. You started this topic, you give a thesis, so you should prove it.
But since you love HRW so much, how about using your very beloved HRW to expose and debunk your claims and lies about the building in Tyre that was allegedly used by Hezb Allah?
Killing of Eleven Civilians in Tyre, July 16
Between 5 and 6 p.m. on July 16, two Israeli air strikes hit a residential building that housed the civil defense offices in Tyre on its first floor, collapsing the four top floors of the building. The apartment of Sayyid ‘Ali Al-Amin, the Shi’a mufti for Tyre and Jabal `Amel, and the offices of former member of parliament Muhammad Abdel Hamid Beydoun were also in the building. Neither Sayyid Al-Amin nor Mr. Beydoun is affiliated with Hezbollah, nor were they present in the building at the time of the attack. The strikes also damaged three neighboring apartment buildings, eight to ten stories high.
In Lebanon, the civil defense forces mostly carry out activities such as firefighting and providing medical and humanitarian assistance during crises. Human Rights Watch has found no evidence that the civil defense forces have taken part in hostilities between Lebanon and Israel, or that Hezbollah fighters were in the building or were storing equipment there.
...
Ten staff members of the Lebanese civil defense force and twenty-five volunteers were inside the civil defense offices at the time of the attack. According to a civil defense official in Tyre, eight members of the civil defense were injured in the attack, including the head of the civil defense center, Abbas Ghorayeb, who was hospitalized in critical condition but has since recovered.
..
The IDF has only stated that it targeted “the headquarters of the [Hezbollah] organization in Tyre,” an assertion contradicted by witnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch.
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0806/5.htm
**
Because I just love using people's own arguments to debunk ... their arguments!
But no, that's only virtual reality of course, because "credible agencies reported that Israel had demolished a Hezb Allah headquarters in Tyre".
Well... I prefer to remain in my virtual reality, thank you!
Good day!
>stems from the need to prop up shattered egos
ohhh, it starts really to make me sad about the future of this conversation. Your style is really full of aggression and allegations of a bad will. It is again and again the picture of the enemy that you are talking to. You don't seem talk to me...
>4. Your sentence, sir, "Concerning IDF's crimes, you can clearly hear from me: they were crimes" is a TAUTOLOGY, and again EVASIVE. You are avoiding calling a spade a spade
This is gettimg more and more ridiculous. I expressed my clearest and open opinion that the Israeli army commited lots of crimes. I showed you the example of Qana massacre and the cluster munitions used by IDF. The only thing I require is that you admitted, really anyhow: theoretically or practically, that Hezbollah commited ANY war crime, as HRW, AI and UN special envoy accuse Hezbollah of. You admit NOTHING and instead flush at me the bunch of personal accusations.
>why not include the so-called 'vehicles' that we allegedly used
Oh my Goodness. Please. This is the article
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
from where the pictures have been deleted, but still available at many places in the internet, cf. here.
http://www.science.co.il/arab-israeli-conflict/articles/Link-2006-07-30.asp
Excuse me, it is really illogical: there is Katyusha rocket launcher, which has to be transported (hopefully) outside civilian area and hidden a couple of minutes after launching. There MUST be the transportation, come on...
"armed group" is not a mere descriptive term as used in the resolution, in reference to arms.
I find it ironic though that since you take it at face value, I wonder why you are not worried that Salafi terrorists, who have ties to Al-Qaida which was responsible for 9/11, are armed and openly training in tripoli, and not a long time ago torched Danish embassy and churches in Beirut? Sorry I guess only when it comes to 'threats' against "Israel's" 'right to exist' does your 'objectivism' and 'moral responsibility' and 'duty' come in!....
Hezb Allah is defined as a national resistance and as functioning under the auspices of the Lebanese state/government. As simple as that. We are not Abu Mazen, nor are we Fateh, nor Saudi Arabia, we do not sell our sovereignty for a pat on the back by Condoleeza Rice while dozens civilians are being massacred daily.
By the way, I forgot to add, regarding the "provocation", "Israel" has continued to violate Lebanese air space since it was kicked out from South Lebanon (again the ego thing), kidnap people ON the Lebanese territory, and KILL shepherds INSIDE Leabnese territory again. Are you saying that "Israel" has a right to launch a war, but we do not have a right to retaliate for these actions? So does "Israeli" sovereignty rank higher than Lebanese sovereignty, because supposedly "Israelis" are God's "chosen people"? I did not know God also kept a list of states' sovereignty.
What do you call the moving of the blue line by "Israeli" soldiers?
Not a provocation, right? God's chosen people did it, after all.
Get real.
>But since you love HRW so much, how about using your very beloved HRW to expose and debunk your claims and lies about the building in Tyre that was allegedly used by Hezb Allah?
I have no problem with taking your argument as a good coin. I take it. What about Hezbollah's blending among Lebanese civilians and attracting the fire on them? I am really interested only in this single question. I agree with your arguments, that IDF committed a lots of abhorrent war crimes. Now what is your answer, could you finally address it?
By the way, no. You are wrong. Show me please the UN Security Resolution pointing to this.
Happy to oblige.
"Refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practical date"
UN resolution 194
and
Universal Declaration of Human Rights
If you don't believe me, check out what your heroes at HRW have to say about it:
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/return/
As I am sure (or hope, for the sake of their ego) the "Israelis" themselves have discovered, we have created an entirely revolutionary system of Katyusha launching, which facilitates our tasks and also ensures that by the time "Israel" has stopped whining about yet another Katyusha falling (while they continue to claim they reduced our capabilities by 60% in the first 2 days ;) ) looking for where the rocket was launched from would be as pointless as looking for a needle in a haystack. ;)
That is only a tiny 'surprise'.
Are you really sure you want to see all our cards in action?
>I wonder why you are not worried that Salafi terrorists, who have ties to Al-Qaida which was responsible for 9/11,
>I guess only when it comes to 'threats' against "Israel's" 'right to exist' does your 'objectivism' and 'moral responsibility'
Next example about your technique of poking at somebody the words he never murmured and thought. Please, I really try to teighten reins. Man, your mode of speech becomes unbearable!
>Hezb Allah is defined as a national resistance and as functioning under the auspices of the Lebanese state/government
But you are an armed group. You are armed and you say it publicly. You bear and amass arms, that is for example the rocket arsenal that Hezbollah praises that has rebuilt.
Black is black, and white is white, my friend. As simple as that.
>has continued to violate Lebanese air space
True. They cross their obligations. Hezbollah does also cross the obligations of stopping smuggling the arms. Both sides cross their obligations. Do you recognize that Hezbollah as a NON-ARMED group should not smuggle weapons?
>kidnap people ON the Lebanese territory, and KILL shepherds INSIDE Leabnese territory again
Could you give me some link? I don't know what you are referring to.
>What do you call the moving of the blue line by "Israeli" soldiers?
If you are talking about the story that happened some 2-3 weeks ago, according to UNIFIL it was the Lebanese Army that started shooting, while it was obvious that IDF wanted to bulldoze their part of territory. After discovering some bunkers created on the Israeli territory by Hezbollah, man...
>"Refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practical date"
>UN resolution 194
Precisely. This is the General Assembly resolution. It is not binding. You should know it. Again, don't make of it that I oppose the just solution to this problem.
Sorry, I must quit. Guest came to my home. See you.
Hezbollah does also cross the obligations of stopping smuggling the arms.
Actually, there was no "obligation" on our part. "Israel" withdrew unilaterally, which is really the virtual reality terminology for "Israel was kicked out". ;)
So, the violations of our airspace have nothing to do with our 'smuggling' of arms.
"Israel" simply never stopped violating our airspace. It is not as if it started doing so after the withdrawal 'because' we fired katyushas. They simply never stopped. They continued not only their violations, but also conducted mock air raids and sonic booms over our skies, as far north as Beirut.
Simply put, the Lebanese state, which is a member of the UN, does not consider Hezb Allah "an armed group" but a national resistance functioning under the auspices of the state, and in fact there is a coordination committee also. If the UN does not like this on the part of one of its founding members, it is free to 'kick us' out of the UN. As simple as that. The UN shoud shut up and accept the state sovereignty; or, if it chooses to continue to be hypocritical in calling for the spread of sovereignty over territory when the state itself insists that there is no issue of sovereignty when it comes to the Resistance, then it should take action once and for all, and take away our membership. That will also mean that the UNIFIL will be kicked out and no longer able to spy on Hezb Allah though.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Could you give me some link? I don't know what you are referring to.
Again, more than happy to do so:
From the UN, Feb. 26, 2006:
The past month witnessed one shooting incident and a subsequent exchange of fire across the Blue Line. On 1 February, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) shot a Lebanese shepherd in the Shab'a farms area; his body was found on the following day. An investigation by the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) found that he had been shot north of the Blue Line. In response to the shooting, on 3 February, Hizbullah fired two rockets in the direction of an IDF position in the area in which the shepherd's body had been found. The IDF responded with artillery and small arms fire directed at Hizbullah positions, and also launched two air strikes. Hizbullah responded with small arms fire and fired 15 Katyusha rockets at several IDF positions. The exchange of fire was limited to the Shab'a farms area. Three artillery rounds fired from unknown locations impacted approximately 200 metres east of a United Nations position near Kafr Shuba.
Source
In the same report:
Israeli air violations of the Blue Line have continued, albeit less frequently during the past month. Eight air violations have been recorded since the last briefing to the Council, on 31 January.
...
The United Nations reiterates its call on the Israeli authorities to halt those breaches of Lebanese sovereignty and fully respect the Blue Line.
If you are talking about the story that happened some 2-3 weeks ago, according to UNIFIL it was the Lebanese Army that started shooting
No, I am not referring to that incident. I am not concerned with that 'incident' as I believe it was made in agreement between the two armies, to give the impression that the Lebanese army was 'defending' Lebanon, and that if the Lebanese army was the one defending Lebanon, "israel" would not respond the way it did in July 2006. That's quite obvious, I must say, especially in light of the 'flirting' between our 'defence' minister and the Lebanese government that was collaborating with the U.S (and "Israel") during the war at the same time as U.S was shipping 'smart' bombs to wipe us out. This is the same 'defence' minister who said that IF the "Israelis" invade Lebanon, the army would join in the fighting against them. I guess, though, that all of us were living in a virtual reality, except for our 'defence' minister, who was living in 'real'? reality, and in that reality there was no "Israeli" soldier setting foot on Lebanese territory. Heh. Impressive, I must say. Very impressive.
But as for what I was referring to, it was actually an attempt coordinated between "Israel"-Siniora-UNIFIL, and the blue line was moved deeper into Lebanese territory, without any statement or announcement, and this was actually exposed by Hezb Allah, and the UNIFIL launched an 'investigation', which was really an admission of their guilt along with an admission of the "Israeli" plan.
Our beloved U.S ambassador (spy), Jeffry Feltman, was quite visibly annoyed by the fact that "Israel" and UNIFIL got caught red-handed.
Precisely. This is the General Assembly resolution. It is not binding. You should know it. Again, don't make of it that I oppose the just solution to this problem.
Does it matter if it is "binding"?
Really, now you are just mincing words.
An internationally recognized right is an internationally recognized right. Whether it is "binding" or not, is irrelevant. And where did I state that it was part of the 'security council resolution'?
It is also stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
But for the record, regarding the Lebanese army - IDF "incident", the IDF indeed violated the blue line. And not only that, but 2 days prior to the 'incident', the IDF had fired shots into Lebanese territory and blown up mines ON Lebanese territory.
I quote from UN Security Council Report 8953:
an IDF bulldozer and excavator carried out earthworks to clear the area of mines and violated the Blue Line in the process.
..
Two days earlier, and at the same location, the IDF had shot at and destroyed four improvised explosive devices on the Lebanese side of the Blue Line.
Source
Thanks for the links. I will read them.
I am not interested in you childish explaination of that the UN SC must subdue to the Lebanese internal law. This is really funny reading you.
Concerning the fact that the UN resolution is not binding, this is precisely the point you must be aware of, precisely this being 100% relevant. It is in turn irrelevant what you think about it with respect to what a given state is obliged to do. The General Assembly resolutions are NOT BINDING and the Security Council resolutions are BINDING for the UN member. Period.You can discuss moral issues, what should or shouldn't be done, but this is another matter.Concerning for example moral considerations, to which I mostly agree that uprooting Palestinians was not moral and should be recompensated, you should add some few hundred thousand of Jews "forced to leave" their arab countries with their property confiscated. Only taking these two issues together one can reach something reasonable in this discussion.
I start to be impatient in waiting for your answer.
I am waiting for your answer concerning as Ian Egeland said "cowardly blending among civilians". Please be so kind and address this question. ONE question.
I am not interested in you childish explaination of that the UN SC must subdue to the Lebanese internal law.
Actually, isn't that what "Israel" has been doing since 1948? I must've missed something?
And yes, the UN shall submit to Lebanese sovereignty, or else it would be actually delegitimizing Lebanon's existence as a sovereign state in its borders. I thought we went over the sovereignty debate, and I told you, that my God does not keep a priority list for which state is more sovereign than others, which seems to be quite a common "Israeli" belief.
I love it when the last resort of those who insist on "Israel's" sovereignty regarding the binding or non-binding nature of resolutions, is to mince words. My friend, if the UNIFIL comes to my land under chapter 7, be sure I will fight it to death, binding or not binding, the UN is nothing but a tool which the powerful use when they need it, and point to the non-binding nature of its other resolutions when they want to get away from it.
I notice your word "recompensation", really? You mean you can choose what the Palestinians should get, whether they can return or get 'compensated'? Who gave you, or the "Israelis" that right?
Of course, when things do not appeal to you, despite insisting that you don't find it 'just' that the Palestinians were dispossessed, you hide behind the non-binding nature of resolutions. Well done. But you know, I see right through you, in case you thought you were fooling anyone.
some few hundred thousand of Jews "forced to leave" their arab countries with their property confiscated.
I do not deny that there might have been instances of anti-Semitism and confiscation of property in the Arab countries, however, there was not a policy of dispossession, and in fact the movement of Jews from Arab countries to "Israel" was 'facilitated' (or rather, caused) by zionist terrorism, like the attacks on the Jews of Yemen and Iraq. Please read what Iraqi Jews have to say about this, to this day the overwhelming majority of Iraqi Jews insist that they were victims of the zionist terrorism, because they refused to be recruited and so the zionists resorted to these scare tactics.
In Lebanon, the Lebanese Jews absolutely refused to move to "Israel", and you know what this led to? The bombing of the Maghen Avraham Synagogue in Beirut in 1982. For more check out the NY Times article dated August 12, 1982, A17, titled "Beirut's Only Synagogue Is Casualty of the Israelis". I can post the article on my blog if you wish. Let me know.
as Ian Egeland said "cowardly blending among civilians"
Isn't this the guy who was mourning over the single 3-story building that was hit by a Katyusha in Haifa, at the same time as thousands of apartments were leveled, often with people in them, who could not leave because of the continuous bombardment and because they had nowhere else to go (I can testify for that as I lived most of the war in one of those buildings). This was in the heart of Beirut, not in South Lebanon where there were allegedly, if we are to believe IDF "intelligence" (not so intelligent given their blunders and outright defeat of 30,000 soldiers and many elite units at the hands of a handful of fighters), katyusha launchers 'welded' into windows... wow, I guess we are THAT quick huh? At least give us credit for THAT, since you are accusing us of such idiotic things.
Mr. Egelend muttered what? Sorry I guess I didn't hear him, because he was mourning for the broken windows in some houses in "Israel". Terrible. Really.
Allow me to dissect that sentence.
Cowardly?
I see, Mr. Egelend considers the 1000 men who fought against 30,000 men cowardly, whereas the 30,000 men who were crying and were hallucinating about 'ghosts of the night' are .... brave men acting in 'self-defence'?
Blending?
Does he mean that the fighters who wear uniforms actually remove them every time, then wear them again when they are fighting, and that actually our fighters were blending in amongst the civilians who were fleeing in topless mini-trucks holding white flags, with babies, women, and children with them? Really, I did not know that 1000 men afforded to 'blend in' and escape in those trucks, I mean, what, last I checked, "Israel" could not break the 2 km "record" of entering into South Lebanon... Must be due to all those fighters who blended in and ran away with the civilians, who were then duly bombarded by "Israel". Like in Marwahine?
Or does he mean that our fighters do not wear battledresses/uniforms, and that we pay so much money for upkeep only for the cameras? Really. We must have a lot of money to waste.
Or maybe he means, the civilians who went to the UN compound begging them to let them in, but they forced them away, and on their way back, they were bombarded by "Israeli" planes, their only crime was heeding the "Israeli" leaflets warning them to leave the villages! They were fleeing, I wonder how they fled, given that our fighters were holding them hostages and shields?
I wonder what the "Israelis" were thinking when they bombed a convoy of CHristians leaving Marja'ayoun after having received assurances from Ahmed Fatfat who had gotten 'assurances' in turn from "Israel" that the convoy could leave?
Or maybe the man who was going to the pharmacy on a motorcycle in Tyre to get formula milk for his baby, because not one drop was left, was really a Hezb Allah fighter "blending in"?
Really,....
Well, I am sorry to disappoint Mr. Egelend, but our understanding of cowardice does not seem to coincide with his European/Western values, nor does our understanding of "blending in" seem to be the same as his understanding, because he seems to imply that all those who heeded "Israel's" warnings that they should leave their villages, were fair game if they got on the roads to save their lives (knowing how terrorist "Israel" has been over the years of occupation), and those who stayed inside, because "Israel" warned it will target anything that moved, were really human shields/hostages, or otherwise Hezb Allah fighters posing as civilians, and therefore also fair game. So in the end, whether our fighters wear a distinctly identifiable uniform or not, whether our civilians flee for their lives, or stay for fear of being bombarded, they are fair game.
Fair enough.
Fortunately it is not Mr. Egelend who determines the outcome of wars. It seems to me, however, that he was a tad bit disappointed. I am sure he will be more careful when placing his bets for round 2.
>instances of anti-Semitism and confiscation of property in the Arab countries, however, there was not a policy of dispossession
You kinda joke. I prefer to really put it to your lack of knowledge about the factography than say you chose not to know. You are not right. In countries like Iraq this was ao open state-led policy of discrimination, prosecutions, property (bank accounts and houses) confiscation, the refugees were kicked out with the equivalent of a some 50 dinars and a bag. Before they were forced, they were put under house arrest, some businessmen were killed after the fabricated trials. They had to pay extra taxes, and I am not talking now about traditional jizya. In Syria their cementeries were devastated and used as street pavings. Still in Syria children were bereaved of education higher than the elementary school. Their telephones were overheared, after their death the family was not allowed to keep the properties, but the property was passing into the hands of the palestinian family. In some countries they had to wear labels of different shape to be distinguished on the streets.
Really, start with some Wikipedia->Jewish refugees, or www.theforgottenrefugees.com or any accessible source. As I said, it was you who touched this problem, not me. And I really don't intend to change this conversation in the race of "who was more beated", or "who made more crimes". These are NOT MY INTENTIONS. My only intention is to hear ONCE from you, really ONCE, whether you have something to say about crimes commited by Hezbollah. A person of Mr Egeland has nothing to say except that he was one of many who formulated the clear sentence: Hezbollah crossed the rules of civilized war, and therefore Hizbollah is CO-RESPONSIBLE for the dead civilians. But unfortunately I will be not waiting more for your answer. I got enough convinced that you, guy, are made of the same clay as those of IDF who commit crimes. And in my eyes you don't deserve to unlace a sandal of the IsraeliDiary blogger, who is sufficiently mature to call the white a white, and the black a black. Of course you have also guarranteed that I will not be spaming your arabic-audience-oriented blog and "interfere your matters". Good luck.
You really have lost it....
What is next, you will say we had concentration camps too?
You are hallucinating.
But I am not surprised, because the Jews have undergone a huge tragedy and a genocide after all, and most are paranoid about us because we resist the zionists' occupation and terrorism. Some are outrightly blind and unaware of history except what the zionists tell them. And what else will the zionists tell? Will they tell that they conducted sabotage and black flag operations in Egypt? Or that they bombed Synagogues and cafes that Jews used to visit often, in Iraq?
Really, get over your blindness and hatred, and ignorance, go read articles, go read what Moshe Gat has written, and what thousands of Jews have said. In fact, not only were the Jews not kicked out, they were NOT allowed to leave the country to go to "Israel", and only later was there a legislation allowing them to move en masse to "Israel".
The forgotten "refugees"!!! Yes, they are forgotten, by the zionists, not us! They were brought and were used only for labor, while the "Ashkhenazim" were in control; in fact go check some of the disgusting statements by some of the "Israeli" leaders, some of them prime ministers and presidents, and others Rabbis, against the Arab Jews.
The treatment of the Arab Jews by the zionists is disgusting. Unfortunately, today our 'leaders', in other words the Arab puppets, spew idiotic remarks about "the Jews", and the Wahabi terrorists are after the remaining Jewish communities. That is disgusting, indeed. But your implications are wrong, and the Jews of Iraq were in fact the wealthiest and most highly educated of all Iraqi communities.
At any rate, yes, those Jews belong in our countries, and they should return. They are our fellow people, and if they have lost property, they should be compensated even though we were not the reason they were transported to "Israel".
But "Israel" will fall apart the day that happens, and it, and USA are well aware of that. That is why they do not want real and honest leaders to come to power in the Arab and Islamic world, because that will mean that the zionist excuses will start falling on deaf ears.
"Israeli soldier" talks about finding stealing of grapes immoral, but he is a soldier of occupation! I find nothing white in that, it is all black, and he is saying it is white!
Anyway, I wish to hear his take on what I just said. How does one find something wrong with stealing grapes, but not with stealing land and occupying people for decades, and in fact serving in/for the occupation?
Krzysztof and Divine Victory (?!) guy: since the two of you are the only ones interested in the "dialogue" you are conducting, how about taking it back to DV guy's blog - or, better yet, email?
The Diary of an Israeli soldier is not a message board for those who want to re-hash last summer's war.
Plus, DV guy - I've gotta say: your debating style leaves a lot to be desire. Yalla, bye.
Yes yes, this is what I expected. The racist acts in Iraq and Syria are nothing more than examples of my hallucination.
Let Wikipedia speak, just to pick up a most basic source from this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iraq#Modern_times_.28since_1922.29
>On August 27, 1934 many Jews were dismissed from public service, and quotas were set up in colleges and universities. (...)Zionist activities were banned, as was the teaching of Jewish history and Hebrew in Jewish schools
>In 1948 (...) Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews were detained, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, and one of the most important anti-Zionist Jewish businessmen in the country was arrested and executed for allegedly selling goods to Israel, shocking the community (Tripp, 123).
Not to speak about Farhud, which was a non-governmental pogrom, where 200 people died and some one thousand were wounded.
Another quote:
"In Libya, Jews were deprived citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was confiscated. As a result, a large number of Jews were forced to emigrate, leaving all their property behind."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands#Jews_flee_Arab_states_.281948-.29
Another quote, from:
http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=25&Itemid=78
After the Six-Day War, more repressive measures were imposed: Jewish property was expropriated; Jewish bank accounts were frozen; Jews were dismissed from public posts; businesses were shut; trading permits were cancelled and telephones were disconnected. Jews were placed under house arrest for long periods of time or restricted to the cities. (...) Scores were jailed upon the discovery of a local "spy ring" composed of Jewish businessmen. Fourteen men, eleven of them Jews, were sentenced to death in staged trials and hanged in the public squares of Baghdad; others died of torture. On January 27, 1969, Baghdad Radio called upon Iraqis to "come and enjoy the feast."
You can find this movie or buy it and check out as witnesses confirm, to what extent I have hallucinations.
Concerning Syria, one quote, from
http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=24&Itemid=83
"Shortly after, the Syrian government intensified its persecution of the Jewish population. Freedom of movement was severely restricted. Jews who attempted to flee faced either the death penalty or imprisonment at hard labor. Jews were not allowed to work for the government or banks, could not acquire telephones or driver's licenses, and were barred from buying property. Jewish bank accounts were frozen. An airport road was paved over the Jewish cemetery in Damascus; Jewish schools were closed and handed over to Muslims.
Again, after watching this movie you can check out who has hallucinations.
Similar stories concern the collective responsibility applied to Egyptian Jews. "Our Jews", as you wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_Egypt#Modern_times_.28since_1922.29
>By the 1940s, the situation worsened, as a number of pogroms were launched against the Jewish population, incited by Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, starting in 1942.
>In 1956 Egypt expelled almost 25,000 indigenous Jews and confiscated their property as part of the Sinai campaign, and 1,000 more Jews were imprisoned. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation was issued stating that "all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state," and it promised that they would be soon expelled. Thousands of Jews left, forced to sign declarations that they were doing so voluntarily, and allowing their property to be confiscated. Foreign observers reported the taking of hostages. After 1967, more confiscations took place.
Similarly actions of collective responsibility done by Jordan on "our Jews" in 1948 living in the West Bank - majority of whom buying their land legally or some living there for centuries. Uprootings with property confiscations. Not to mention that at the Jordanian rule, the jewish Wailing Wall (the Al Buraq's wall) was changed to the public WC.
Sir, to speak maturely about the problem of the refugees you should undertake some more effort than reading exclusively the literature that its sole attempt is to denounce the "bad zionists". See, these bad zionists have just predicted what has been prepared to the Jews in the antisemitic Europe of the thirties. To acquire some balanced view, you should contemplate the fact that millions of this nation were placed under the wall with the only unbearable choice to survive: escape to Israel. I recall no nation in history was placed under such pressure, not even the Polish nation of which also 6 millions died. If other countries widened quotas of refugees, the situation would be different. But at the time of the extermination of millions, they narrowed them! USA narrowed the quota, for example the immigration to Alaska (this favourite Alaska of Ahmedinejad) was totally banned, USSR closed the Birobijan republic, England was sending Jews back to Hitler. And lots of countries did like this. Another argument is the following: even if many Palestinians were uprooted in the course of the 1948 war (which is clearly a situation to fix: allow many of them the return and really high recompensation for the rest), the policy of harsh discrimination done by many Arab states against their jewish citizens, pushed these Jewish people out. Altogether, these countries morally contributed to the justification of the existence of Israel. That means, as the governments of these countries and partly the people of these countries showed that Jews are not welcome - therefore they are co-responsible for the situation. It is nothing astonishing that Jews don't want to return. Just try once to get into their skin. But those of them whose property was confiscated, should be recompensated for the same moral reason as the Palestinian refugee question should be morally solved.
Therefore it is immoral putting Israel in brackets. Many Arabs are co-responsible for the situation they don't like, and to remain serious, they should then draw conclusions from it. I am sure that in future there will be place for both the Palestinian, Lebanese and Israeli countries living in peace with the historical problems solved in the most moral possible way.
Lisa, you're right. Sorry. It is the addiction to the internet. DV man - Lisa's right. We should stop this discussion now. best regards from Poland.
heyyyyyy.... now I can see.
Nice photos TDIS !
I feel truly sorry for you, not just because you blindly parrot what you are told, but that you follow what you read on Wikipedia, which basically anyone can edit, and that you respond to my citation of an article published in a scholarly journal, by a Jew (!) with links to Wikipedia, and then boast of having debunked my argument....
Really, it is pathetic. I pity you. I do.
Go read, about the underground ring the zionists had started long before ANY Iraqi or Egyptian or Yemenite actually did anything! Go read about the bombs and operations conducted by the zionists! And yes, yes, and yes, if they were spying, they deserved to be caught, hanged, and so on! Those who did it did so with full knowledge of the consequences of their actions! But to say that their actions were based on the so-called pogroms and official policies of confiscation, dispossesssion, and so on, which was NON-EXISTENT except as a figment of your imagination (as I said, the Iraqi Jews especially were the WEALTHIEST of all communities in Iraq, up to the last minute) is malicious and shows how low you are willing to stoop to, again, legitimize "Israel" and its actions and shift part of the responsibility away from it (and stop trying to find excuses to argue against my non-recognition, "Israel" is illegal is illegal is illegal is immoral is terrorist, no matter what you say and how you try to turn this to justify its existence). Your implications and concept of "co-responsibility", sir, are DISGUSTING. That is equivalent to saying that the Arab Jews who had nothing to do with "Israel" would have deserved to be put in concentration camps or kicked out en masse (which they weren't, they left after the zionists placed bombs in Synagogues and cafes, please see what Gat writes about how, just as few had registered to leave Iraq, numbering in the hundreds only and had died down to ZERO people registering to leave the country, these bombings took place, and the next day registration centers were filled with people). Really, you should give more credit to the murderous genius of the zionists, and at the same time not imply that we, the Arabs and Muslims, are THAT stupid to have justified "Israel's" existence (although our 'leaders' were, afterwards, as I mentioned before, because they were puppets of that very same "Israel", and USA!).
But then I am not surprised, you are after all, saying that Hezb Allah was "co-responsible" for the massacre of 1200 civilians, even as you refuse to give any proof that Hezb Allah indeed held civilians as human shields and hostages (I notice you evaded addressing my points about what Egelend said).
But since we're at it, and since anti-Semitism in Europe "justifies" "Israel" and its terrorism (under the guise of "co-responsibility" which is another product of yet another murderous genius supporter of "Israel") then what is happening in Iraq today also justifies a Shi'ite state. Now we shall proclaim that "Israel" is a land without a people for a people without a land, and settle it, and drive out the non-existent inhabitants (cockroaches none less, as one of the "Israeli" leaders once said of the Palestinians!), and blame them of co-responsibility, of having "brought it upon themselves", etc etc. I am sure you, and Jan Egelend would be quite fascinated by such a turn of events.
But anyway, since all your beloved "Westerners", and "civilized" Europeans and Americans were and CONTINUE TO BE anti-Semitic (hence their support for "Israel", because they do not wish that those Jews would come and live in their countries), and since you are better known for "making the desert bloom", I suggest that you take your enlightening selves and "civilize" the (again non-existent) population of Uganda. I am sure they would not be as ungrateful as us Arabs, and definitely will not give you headaches, and force you to formulate such complex theories as "co-responsibility".
Or maybe, if the "Israelis" would like to accept that they are not superior to us as human beings, they should stay where they are now, and the Palestinians should return, and all live in one state where there is equal rights for all (Jews, Muslims, Christians), and you can even have the luxury of calling that state "Israel" if you wish. Or is it too much to ask, I mean equality and human dignity, because apartheid, Jewish-only roads, Jewish-only villages, etc. are really "nice" and a prosperous business venture...?
Time to wake up from the nightmare you were stuck in, in WWII (understandably), not everyone is out to get you, for goodness's sake! Stop ghettoizing yourselves, and accept others as equals, as good people who are not just smiling in your face while plotting to stab you in the back!
I rest my case!
Enough. I don't want to spam somebody else's forum anymore. And I don't want to discuss with someone who chose not to merely contemplate any co-responsibility of the Arab side, which is proven by tens of witnesses, and not only the Wikipedia my friend.You flatly failed to address my proofs of your continuous lies by demonstrating you the HRW reports and links to pictures showing that you simply lie.Let Hezbollah remain the "absolutely not armed group"...Okay, these are your choices. Enough for the IsraeliDiary, whose blog we were spamming for a whole day. Really, basta.
Forgive me, IsraeliDiary for spamming your forum. I fully respect your right to trash all my messages here and I will not do this again. Wish you all the success.
Hey guys,
You're free to post here as much as you like, as long as there's no incitement.
"I support the peaceful people and moral code, and oppose the crime.
Whoever commits a crime, he/she DESERVES the denouncement."
Chris, I have to admit I agree with you 100%. It doesn't matter who commits the crime, be it a neighbor a friend or a bother, he deserves the punishment.
There is no such thing as an evil nation, race or religion.
Individual's actions reflect only his own behavior and not of the people with whom he's affiliated.
IsraelyDiary,
I knew that you would say that the guests of your blog should feel like guests of your home. But independently of this, Lisa is right. With "DV" guy we should have jumped to private conversation, since it is obvious that now any reader intending to _just_comment_ your post would feel disgusted by the mess done here. I simply forgot myself.
Anyway I must say I read all your diary, which delighteded me, and am dying of learing about your other experiences. During my visit to Israel last year I met a lot of positive, open, peaceful and truthful people. From this I keep the strong faith that the _real_ peace, a peace based on mutual recognition, and to most possible extent just solutions will come. Which I wish you and all the readers from your region. Privety s Varshavy!
woah! crazy bit of discussion going on here. . . .
ID - this was a very well written post. I like this internal conflict you have going on,\; it's so human. Thanks for commenting on my blog the other day.
gg
I just read your diary thanks to the link on Nizo's blog. It was especially sweet to discover you via a Palestinian, don't you think? So, nu, what happened with Angel?
I also luckily found your blog via Nizo's latest post. Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences and thoughts!
regards from Germany :)
wow..
Heyya ID...
I am glad to see that your blog is picking up readership, bro.
Nizo is a much better promoter than me :)
As always - love your style of writing, love the hunamity of it and your unique perspective.
Hazak ve ematz.
PS
Boogie Yaelon is making waves about getting a bloody grip on IDF and beating the notion of professionalism into the heads of some 18 years old kids. I hope he can pressure Ashkenazi into action...
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